Hello, and welcome to The Theory of Marketing Relativity Podcast. I'm Jess Burton, a marketing specialist here at Epic Marketing Consultants Corporation. Let's talk all things marketing and merchandising with our Epic team. Today, my guest is Jane Clark of Brand Swan, a web design and branding agency. Thank you so much for joining us today, Jane.
Jane:Absolutely. My pleasure.
Jess:I am like I always just like floored with like, how people come to have like their brand colors and their logo like I wouldn't even know where to begin. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about Brand S wan. And how you started Brand Swan.
Jane:Oh gosh that's a story. Definitely. So I actually have a photography degree. So I was not expecting to be a designer at all. I just thought that there were more opportunities after leaving college, you know, because photographers were very saturated market at that time. And of course, even now they're more saturated. So you can only imagine so going with web design seemed like I can make some more money doing that. So plus, I love the technology aspect. So I started doing web design, and then it just turned into oh you need a logo well Okay, I know how to do that. And it just kind of evolved from there. And to me just having a passion for that brand. Brand branding first. And I love the variety which we get to do. So, that's that's the best part, I think. So anyway, I went on to work for Teakettika for about 11 years. And then recently, about six months ago, my friend Jen and I merged our companies, it's really the same people, same services, but we just have a new vision. And whereas Teakettika was sort of made out of necessity Brand Swan was very intentional. And I have to say is a really big passion project agenda is a phenomenal partner. So that's how we kind of started this. And because we were already designers before we merged, we had a lot of our processes in place on how to build an awesome brand. She has absolutely just made that process. I think it's It was beautiful, like well systems, amazing. works for you, you know, just making everything easier the onboarding process getting, getting the information at the client so that you can make them a really awesome brand that not only evokes an emotional response for them, but you know, the clients as well. Right. So. So that is kind of what we do. And we do it in a more storytelling organic way to do our brand awareness.
Jess:I love that. I think it's it's always interesting to listen to people talk like I think my favorite part about working with like other companies and people who own companies is listening to the story they tell when you ask them to like Tell me a little bit about your business. And like how did it come to be? Because I think it makes it more of that organic and personal connection. And if you're just like, Oh, your company is called this, let's do this. All of the like nitty gritty details that went to the designing of your company.
Jane:I would say part of the branding process is also kind of jumping in my opinion, you know, because Brand Swan didn't really take off until no pun intended or pun intended depending on how you look at it, but didn't really take off until I was like okay, you know what, we're merging because I don't want to run two different businesses I wanted to be under one umbrella all of our efforts being concentrated in one area and that's when it really started to become its own living breathing entity so to speak.
Jess:That is amazing. I even think I my gosh, I hate paperwork. So I'm even sure from like the paperwork standpoint, it made your jobs 10 times easier. Um, so you probably know that this year's colors of the year have evoked multiple feelings from all over the place the Ultimate Gray and Illuminating. So do you how do you guys decide on an I'm like, I love color color is fascinating to me. I wish that I could like paint because I feel like I visually like color wise I feel like I'd be super interested in it just for the colors and the textures. But when you guys like do web design and branding How can you kind of choose colors or like a shape or aesthetics when you go about building a brand image for somebody
Jane:Oh gosh that we have templates and a starting point when we're building brands but don't tell Jen knows all that she's probably gonna hear it but I never really follow the same template twice sometimes because it's not. Although it's a really great starting point. Sometimes it's it makes sense for all brands. So obviously we start the questionnaire and we want to get everything we need to know from you about what makes you passionate about what will excite you about your own brand, and then compare that to who your target audiences, how do they want to be communicated with? And then, of course, we do the industry standard. So if you're a funeral home, and you're using hot pink, you know, how can we is that a appropriate color, for example? So we want them to stand out while still being conventional and trustworthy in that industry. And I think, at that point is becoming more intuitive, just as I get older, and I have more experience and like, hey, maybe we should be talking for a funeral home, you know, or, or, you know, too much, you know, black and lime green can really seem a little rebellious. So maybe if you're a corporation that may or may not work for you. So that is the starting point, once we find out the client once, and then from there, I am looking at 1000s of fonts and shapes and patterns and imagery, and all of a sudden, something will just click, for example, I'm working on Neeley Spots, one, our brand package from our last reveal your and our awesome event. And it was really humbling, because she's a phenomenal designer. She was she took one of my co design classes once and I was nervous. I'm like, wait, you want me to design you? A logo? Okay. All right, we're doing this. But you know, we are our own worst clients, right? Because we try to skip that process on how to brand someone. But so I'm, you know, looking at what you said in the past what you liked now sending her some style tiles, which are basically I'm not sure if you've heard of them. Like Style Til. es Nope, that's on it. Hold on. Yes, I know, styletil.es. So it's spelt styletil.es. That's okay. I'll send you guys a link. But basically, it just like a PSD file. It's kind of like a glorified mood board, where you can show patterns and colors and type and just really give them a taste of what that brand could look like. And we might do a few of those depending on the different directions that we've talked about. We don't actually do the mock up until we kind of get through this phase. Once they're like moving in I'm that's when we actually take it to the full mock up, either by logo or the website. Sometimes we start backwards, sometimes we start the website first, and then rebrand the logo, depending on how the logo looks. So if they might have a goal, like we want to get more website leads we would have, maybe we want to start selling through our shop. And we redesigned a beautiful website, make it that's everything they wanted to do. And then we look at the logo and it looks dated, right? So we might do something just sprucing it up just giving a little tiny facelift with that. They're still recognizable, but they look like they're hip there with it. You know, their shits together. Can I say shit on? Okay, well, I just did twice. Yeah, okay. So very exciting process. I completely lost my train of thought because I panicked. I'm like, Oh, no, I'm not being pG 13
Jess:Oh my gosh, no you are fine. I think like what you were like what you're saying about like the process is there's a process. It's, I laugh because in a lot of creative spheres. There. I think the phrase rules are meant to be broken, applies heavily. You make all of these different processes, and you have all of these steps you have to follow, but like depending on the situation, you might be starting at step five, working back to step one, and then pick up back at step six.
Jane:Yeah.
Jess:Whereas with someone else you are going to do you know, step one, step two, step three. Yeah, it's a super good point that like every brand is different, which is what makes it so great.
Jane:And this project in particular, I found a font. And I was like, this is it. This is the font, and it's called Ink Spots. And I found like this font where a lot of letters were comprised of like dots and curves. So even though there was gaps between the letters, you can still say, Oh, that's a C, you know, so. I don't know, she likes it. I sent it to her last night. And then she replied today being like, I'm gonna look at it later. I'm like, No, you're leaving me hanging, I thought you're gonna look at it. So she may end up hating it. But that sort of opened the gate. And once that one little tiny spark happens, you have the aha moment and then it all comes together. Other times you have to walk away if it's just not being, you know, if it's being forced, and you're just not feeling it. Sometimes I might do a brainstorming session with my team, or I just work on something else. You come back to it. But eventually, you'll get to the point where it starts to feel right.
Jess:Yes, I remember. Oh my gosh, this is like I'm sure you've heard of like the Cricit the cutting machine.
Jane:Yes,
Jess:I have had I mean I still have it somewhere in storage. I had the OG Cricket like 10 years ago and they came out.
Jane:Whoo.
Jess:And I Remember, like, be like someone watching a YouTube video of someone like teaching like how to get fonts without buying all of the cartridges that go with the Cricut. And that was like my first foray into like designing things on my own. And I just remember like finding this one font website and going, Oh my god, they're organized by led by like, by what they're called. So by like initial like alphabet
Jane:Was it font squirrel?
Jess:Possibly I remember clicking on an A and then looking at the bottom, and it's like, you're on page one of 147.
Jane:Oh, yeah, that t
Jess:I just remember thinking like, Oh, my God, there are that many fonts in the world.
Jane:Yeah, we're actually launching this brand personality ebooks, well, we already have them, you can take a quiz online and do them. So it'll ask you questions about, you know, how you want to be seen and what your goals are. And then it's like, guess what you are sincere and honest, you know. So we are in the middle of revamping the mall, we now have 12 of them. And we've added more examples of popular brands,that might have that same brand more type examples, color palette. So I'm super psyched about it to give people just a starting point to what their brand could look like. And it's never really all or nothing, you know, so you might get one personality, but you're also a part of something else. So you might get like authentic and then you're also slightly rebellious at the same time. So yeah
Jess:That is I feel like fonts are like a black hole you could fall into.
Jane:It's to the point where I can't even enjoy life anymore. Seriously, Jess because I will. Somebody will come on the TV and I'm like, Wow, that is I'm Comic Sans or you know, something will come on. And I'm like, Oh, that's Blackjack. Like, I can't stop picking out fonts. It's just,
Jess:I want to say there was I saw like a Twitter thread or maybe it was on Reddit or something. And it was like, um, it was like fonts. It was like, brands that you didn't brands and their fonts. And I didn't realize how many like very large brands use like the basic I call them like the basic 20 like there's these 20 fonts.. It's all fluid
Jane:or like Rotunda Remember that whole thing. My mind but every brand is different Rotun a oh my gosh, yeah, the GAP
Jess:Yes, I just it was it cracked me up that I was like, f 2012 disaster. I think they we t to basically glorified Ariel f I remember correctl wow, they're using Comic Sans. Like, okay, that's like my deed. That's like the default for like, I was like, did we try? Like, what are some effort there?
Jane:Oh man ... original question, which is, you know, the color of the year, how do we pick color? And I would say, you know, we try to be trendy with the colors we pick. Because, obviously trends come and go. But I think you can really inspire, just, for example, 2d design, flat design, how long is that going be around? Because it's been around like, I feel like more than a decade at least.
Jess:Mm hmm.
Jane:Is that ever going to be trendy? You know, because a lot of brands right now, existing brands are rebranding with cleaner and brighter colors, and I just wonder if that's going to stay around for a while or even that will look too childish in time.
Jess:I think it's funny that you mentioned that because like, I think Burger King just rebranded and looking at their new logo. I'm like, wow, wow.
Jane:I have not been pulled up real fast so I can talk smack if needed.
Jess:I think it literally is like Burger King with like two buns around.
Jane:I like big buns that I cannot lie. Okay, I don't like the mustard color of the bun. But I like the font.
Jess:Yes.
Jane:Well, the font I don't think has changed. I think it changed a little bubbly
Jess:but I was literally just gonna say it's a little more bubbly like I feel like before it was a little more playful
Jane:You know something more like gas stationy
Jess:Yes.
Jane:I can't describe it but a gas stationy. Yeah, I don't know that orange just doesn't make me feel hungry. Right.
Jess:So it's funny you say that I remember taking a class in college because I have a degree in psychology.
Jane:Oh, you must be fun, at parties.
Jess:It's worse because like I took classes on like Counseling Psychology. So like, I totally like overthink myself all the time. And like, there are times I'll literally sit and be like, you're only like this because then I'll explain it to myself and then I'll get mad at myself for explaining it to myself. Um,but I it's funny because we study like you study color and like how that can evoke emotion. And like, I think it was like sensation and perception is what we studied it in. Because like, how you perceive things, you perceive things by the colors that they are. Oh, yeah. Which like when we were talking about like the colors of a year, I was like that yellow makes me sick. I was like the gray makes me feel bored. I'm like, so you want me to be sick and bored. I'm like, COVID-19 right there, ladies and gentlemen.
Unknown:Yeah I mean. don't get me started on that one. That's a whole new topic. As we are getting online, it does kind of make the point of should we be using fonts that are very easily read on screen? You know, do we want to change our brand fonts or accommodate because a lot of that's what we're consuming out is just online and social media. I wonder how that's going to affect the poor Serifs of the world. But Serifs really great for print. They might not be that great for depending how high contrast they are, can be difficult to read on screen.
Jess:Yeah I know Nancy's big thing. Is that when we design any kind of anything for any client is that it's ADA compliant. .
Jane:Oh yes because every time because, yeah, there's a Bible. That's like, here's how you're either. I don't think you can be like either ADA compliant or not ADA compliant. It's like degrees of ADA compliant.
Jess:Yeah. And I like glass because I like think about brand colors. And I'm like, okay, so you chose like, light purple and dark purple. Now we're stuck.
Jane:Now we are monochromatic. I hope you're pleased with yourself.
Jess:Yes, I remember I had a teacher who was colorblind. And like him trying to explain to a huge red green colorblind, and him trying to explain to us how, like, certain and this was in like high school, and how like certain, like logos and like images were hard for him to see. Because like, he couldn't see those colors. And I'm like, wow, things you don't think about?
Jane:Yeah Yeah. And I've met a lot of guys who are close colorblind more than women, I would say. Again, they need our help, so that they can target the right people. But usually they let us know, hey, I can't see that.
Jess:Exactly yeah I think branding. It's funny, because I feel like I all the time joke, like, I'm gonna start a business about whatever I'm interested about this month. Um, and then I like think about it a little bit. And I'm like, I don't feel like coming up with a name, a logo, color
Jane:I mean, sometimes people pay us to make their names for them. And I love that process. The hardest part, though, to be honest, is is this name taken, you know, I'm making up words at this point, you know, your combining words and like, you know, different spellings, and still surprised that there are some available that are actually pretty decent. But I am sort of on the team of I don't think we have an original thought in this universe anymore. And so many people's have already thought of it, yo
Jess:I say that literally all the time. I'm like, there are no original thoughts left, everything has already been thought of by someone else.
Jane:It's a little heartbreaking. But you know, I think it's just about opening whatever it is, and just that be your mantra, you know, and then that's how people will remember you.
Jess:I use that phrase all the time to like when people are like, Oh, I don't know, I feel like it's already been done before. I'm like, What hasn't been done before?
Jane:Who isn't doing this in this local vicinity? You know, and at least in the country, how far we go in here with this with this module?
Jess:Exactly, exactly.
Jane:There's a great book actually called the Type Style Finder, by Timothy Samara. It's well loved. And there's like, post it notes on every single page. What I love about it is that like, it gives you a bunch of personality. So for example, this one is a random page here. It is romantic. So it shows you different romantic fonts and colors, sample color palettes, to kind of get you started in that direction, you know, so at least you know, like, the overall approach that makes people feel that that emotion and then you can break the rules if you want to like share with another brand personality to kind of make it make it more unique. But I think this is a great start for new designers and even people who just want to understand a bit more of the psychology the color aspect, like you were saying.
Jess:Absolutely. So going off of that. What are do you have like, I know that like in like I work a lot in social media. There are a couple things that I always want people to know about social media when they like, are introduced to it and they're interested in it. Are there a few things that you want people to know about like choosing brand colors and branding and all that kind of stuff.
Jane:I have some golden rules. About fonts and colors. And one of the big one for me is that use black strategically, because it can either make colors look trashy. Or, like you can use black softness like a charcoal to make it just a little less intense. So that's usually why my thing like black can make colors look trashy use it sparingly at full ink. You know, don't forget about your rich blacks versus your regular blacks. So if you're saying something to print, it's gonna be pretty big and black, make sure that you put more ink into it, so it doesn't look washed out. This is some basic things. And regardless of what you do definitely have like, neutrals, or whitespace. And the whitespace can be just softer colors as well doesn't actually have to be white. Just because it does break up sections a little bit without being too bold. And also, you don't want your colors all screaming the same volume, because then it becomes difficult to really pick out what's most important on the page. If you have really bold colors, I recommend using them strategically for call to actions and links, things like that. And last but not least, if your brand colors are, let's say you're picking something rather girly likes, like soft pinks and pastels, you have to make sure that your supporting imagery also works with that or you're going to lose that effect immediately. So if you're a designer and you and you use very soft pinks, it's very monochrome, and then you load in your portfolio images, if they are big and bold and black and neon green, it's going to completely take away from your brand. So then you have to kind of be more strategic in how you make those case studies. So just remember, whatever you do, it could affect you long term when you're making social media images, you know so and also see how it looks at smaller sizes on different stocks of paper as well. always pick out a Pantone color. So that way, you know, if you really are interested in this one certain shade of orange it can't be toodark, it can't be too light, then I'd recommend doing a Pantone color. So that no matter where you go, you're going to get that same shade.
Jess:That is super smart.
Jane:So that is my color advice for anyone who's tried to do something on their own..
Jess:As amazing. Thank you so much for being on this podcast with me Jane. We'll have to have you back sometime
Jane:You better
Jess:If people want to find you or Brand Swan. Where should they look? Email, text? Send a carrier pigeon?
Jane:Yeah, honestly, brandswan.design is where we hang out. We also do some events we also do the brand personality quiz. But you can find us all on social media just Brand Swan. It's not taken except for by us. So I don't think you're gonna find any competitors. So BrandSwan.design. So much for having me on. I really appreciate it.
Jess:No problem. I love talking to new people. Not that I don't love my Epic associates. But it's always fun to get other people's ideas and opinions and thought out.
Jane:I mean it's funny because although this is a very competitive industry, I think the connections that we meet, and they're just so important, you know, just to make sure that the industry is thriving. And you know, it's about finding the right fit for you. So it's not really that competitive when you think of it from that perspective. So I'm really glad you invited me. Obviously i'd love Epic so much. When I was a baby designer, I was just like, oh, maybe one day of your life. So it's nice that you invited me on your Podcast
Jess:You are so welcome. Thank you for joining us.
Jane:All right.
Jess:Thank you all for tuning in this week. We hope this theory is relative to your marketing needs. Make sure you subscribe to get notified of our latest episodes.