Hello, and welcome to the Theory of Marketing Relativity Podcast. I'm Jess Burton, a marketing specialist here at Epic Marketing Consultants Corporation. Let's talk all things marketing and merchandising with our Epic team. Today, my guest is Flora, our Epic Project Manager. Flora a thank you for joining me today.
Flora:Hello, Hello. Nice to be here.
Jess:Absolutely. From the comfort of our own homes.
Flora:Right? Nice to be here.
Jess:I know, right? Today's like the first time it's been like super chilly. And it's like looked nice outside. I like step by window and I was like, Oh, that's cold. Just kidding. Yeah, I'm going to stay inside. Um, so you are our, are our I feel like I sound like a seal when I say that. You are our project manager here at Epic. Um, so from your point of view, what does a project manager do?
Flora:I guess I'd say in a nutshell, we're just sort of like the train conductor. We don't necessarily drive the train. We don't connect the cars but we make sure they're all going in the same direction. And we're all on the same track. They're all connected properly. And you know, there's enough coal to stoke the fires.
Jess:I love that. I feel I know like when I before, as I've been referring to it BF before Flora. Um, I had kind of coined the term accountability fairy here at Epic because at one point I was like, who who's keeping tabs on what layer of the project we're on who's keeping tabs on what we need to do. So Nancy and I somehow came up with the term accountability fairy. So you're like our company accountability fairy?
Flora:Spreading my little organizational dust everywhere?
Jess:Yes, you're like,yeah, that's about it. Iwas gonna say you're like the mom. But no, mom.
Flora:I am the nag. So
Jess:You're just keeping everything on the right track? Well, no one gets into an accident. Right? Um, so being a project manager, what are thekey part? What do you think are the key parts of your job aside from keeping all the trains on track?
Flora:Um I would say key would be I mean, one to me is boundaries and boundaries to me mean things like contracts statement of work, tasking things out properly. So everybody knows exactly what their lane is. And you know, they don't step out of it unless they need to. Other key is really just being very precise in our wording and in our language so that it's vague enough that there's room to maneuver but not so vague, that it can be completely interpreted in 20 different ways. And I would think also, we have to learn to walk this fine line between being like extremely like type A and very sort of like a for um.
Jess:OCD.
Flora:Not OCD I'm a Oh, my God. It's a basic word. I say it all the time.
Jess:Yeah I just like, I feel like there is a word for it.
Flora:I know there is ..
Jess:As soon as we like finish this, we're both gonna remember
Flora:Yep. Oh control freak. it.
Jess:That's it Why was that hard word.
Flora:I know we say it like three times a day.
Jess:Exactly.
Flora:Walking the fine line between being an absolute control freak. And knowing that you have no control over anything. Like you have to be able to walk both lines. So while, I have to be a control freak to make sure it's all going. Like I said, I'm not the one putting the cars together. I'm not the one putting the coal in the fire and just making sure it all gets done.
Jess:You have the great job of being flexible and inflexible at the exact same time.
Flora:Yeah, this whole dichotomy every day. It's it's interesting makes for a fun day.
Jess:Yes, I can only imagine. I know. I know. I deal with myself. I'm like, we could we could do that later. And like no, this has to get that now. Um, yeah, I feel like you definitely have kept a lot of us on track when things could very, very quickly veer off into a direction that is not good. Yeah. So how did you become a project manager? What drew you to being a control freak and flexible at the same time?
Flora:Let's say my DNA accounts for the control freak. I don't think that's a learn thing, I think that's anything. Um, I was a general manager for a spa for a couple years before I ever went to business school and I just I knew that I loved it. And I think the thing that I really gravitated towards was process improvements and, you know, creating procedures and creating best practices that to me, just, you know, like a nerd. I love being behind the scenes. I love creating that and making that foundation. When I went to business school, of course, I chose to, you know, my electives for many project management electives as I could and I just, I absolutely loved it. I love everything about it. It's very technical, but you know how I am. I love spreadsheets. I love data. I love analyzing things. I just love it. Yes, I like it. I met you know, Nancy a few years ago, and she knew how much I loved it. She's like, we need one. Let's go. And here I am.
Jess:I Yeah, I definitely feel like you have to be a specific kind of person to be drawn to processes and organization and all that kind of stuff.
Flora:Yeah. You definitely do
Jess:It's not something I feel like you can learn it to a certain level. But to get to those, like, for lack of a better term, those like high functioning levels of organized that's like, in your DNA. That's something that like you can't teach.
Flora:Yeah, you can't I mean, I'm not I'm not a real creative person. I'm definitely more of like numbers and data and structures and graphs and puzzles. And so yeah, I mean, I can sit with a problem for hours, whereas most people, they just, you know, not everybody can do that. But I could sit
Jess:That is too funny. I yeah, I when I was in like college, I with it for hours. was a psychology major. And I had interned at a event planning place, like, the plans like weddings and parties and stuff like that. And I just remember thinking like, Oh my god, all of these women are so freakishly organized. Down to like, the times, and the things that need to be like, no, don't get me wrong. I love a good like, something that looks professional put together. But you do not need to tell me that the candles need to be five inches apart on the table. That's just a little a little too much for me.
Flora:Noted. Did you get a ruler out.
Jess:Um, she, I remember, she legitimately had her. All of her project binders had, um, like in the slip cover on the front of the binder had like the event so she would like you know, the, you know, Smith Patterson wedding would have like their colors, whatever on it. But then at the bottom on the bottom sheet of the sheet of paper was a ruler.
Flora:Yeah.
Jess:So it had like it would there was a ruler on the bottom of it that was six inches long. And I had hash marks for the half inch and the quarter inch mark. So that it like the binder for the client one with us every time we did something for the client. And that ruler got used way more than I thought it would and I actually was like that's actually not a bad idea. ,
Flora:Oh I love me a good ruler. I always like the pretty ones. I like the ones that are see through because behind it so I know actually lined up I need to line up I don't like those ones. I need the clear plastic ones.
Jess:I agree with you. And I feel like those are always like cheaper to like I love a good ruler.
Flora:Yeah, I need to and I spent some time in the Army. So for me I have hardwood floors. I was really weird. But I have hardwood floors. So my tables and my chairs are like lined up with the slats. So the wood if it's crooked I go insane.
Jess:That is crazy
Flora:So yeah, that's not a learned thing. It's definitely an innate thing. You can't learn this stuff. It's either anywhere. It's not.
Jess:Yeah. Oh, I know. I it's funny like I am. I am the queen of color coding, I color code, everything and anything my Google calendars are color coded. My social schedule is color coded. My work is color coded. I'm even like this is and this is like I everyone like this. All of my bags are color coded so like I coach school students and the school is blue and yet like the school colors are blue and yellow. So everything I have for them my bag, my game day bag is royal blue with yellow accents. My class bag is blue with yellow accents. Like it's just a level of organized that I strive to be.
Flora:What did you say that the day your Google Calendar was looking like a pride flag?
Jess:Yes, like there are some days where like, based on like, the other part of it is that like so my boyfriend and I share a Google account, like share our Google calendars. So like he knows meetings or I have stuff . And like, I can see his Google Calendar. So I know when he has meetings and stuff. So like, if I open my Google Calendar legitimately looks like a pride flag. I'm like, representing all day, every day.
Flora:Some funny
Jess:Way to support the community
Flora:One Google Calendar at a time,
Jess:Exactly I know. And I'm like, so and I'm so crazy. I'm like, this one's dark blue, this is light blue, this is a different shade of royal blue. And people are like, you have a problem?No, I just like to visually see my staff. So back to project managing business stuff, what is it that what do you think is probably the most challenging part of your job?
Flora:The most challenging,
Jess:Aside from working at all of us,
Flora:You are, one of the easiest groups I've worked with, I mean, aside from just having, you know, the amount of projects I have, it's a different types of projects. Um, so it's, it's, it's this funny sort of place to be in where I have to manage these projects. But there's so many different types, you know, we've social, we've got websites, we've got print things, we've got, you know, a multitude of things, and not being a subject matter expert in them, but still having to manage them and drive them. So I'm constantly having to learn so many new things that I mean, I never would have learned how to do a website before, I never would have learned how to code before and never, you know, would have learned how to do social media before. So it's having to constantly learn these different avenues so that I can manage them well. Um, I'd say that's definitely one of the more difficult things aside from just, you know, the obvious technicality of having 80 plus projects going at all times. It's knowing, having enough knowledge to be able to manage it well. To be able to task it out well. That's probably the hardest, I would say, for this particular company, at least.
Jess:I would definitely agree that you're like to change the way this phrase is said you're a jack of all trades so that you can master this one.
Flora:Yeah. Right. So I'm, I guess, coming from a background of being more of a subject matter expert in one thing for, you know, well over a decade, and then coming here and being I know a little bit about this, and I know a little bit about it. I know a little bit about this. I know just enough about this, and having to put all that together and still drive the train.
Jess:Yes, definitely driving the train in the right direction. I know I what was it earlier, I forget what you reminded all of us to do. And and I think someone's first comment was like, okay, mom,
Flora:update your project status. What is your status?
Jess:Yeah, exactly. I, I don't even know how like sometimes. And maybe, maybe it's because I am also on the social team. So I'm doing all the social stuff. But just I'm like how does Flora keep track of all this stuff. How does she know.
Flora:I have a very extensive project management platform.
Jess:Yeah, I can only imagine. Yeah. Now, aside from the fact that we use Workamajig. Aside from that, are there any programs or stuff that you use on top of that to kind of keep track of who, what, when, where, why how deadlines.
Flora:Um deadlines. I do use Trello a little bit. I mean, we have so many projects that I just for sort of higher level things, because you know, with 80-90, some projects like I can, some Trello boards plus Workamajig, that's a lot. For me, I am very old school, I like to write things down. I don't, I don't I don't associate with things, or I guess I don't, um, I don't identify with things so much when I type it, so I have to physically write it. So I've got notebooks upon notebooks upon notebooks upon notebooks. And there's something about writing that it sticks in my brain. Um, so I do, I do tend to use more, I would say, like, handwritten notes. Um, and then sometimes I like to sort of open up organize my Google Drive in, like a left to right, you know, more important to less important sort of organization, I guess. Yeah, I think for due dates, it's really mostly just the work in the day. I think people want to use the platform for this and a platform for that and a platform for this and then you have now you have to manage six platforms on top of the multiple projects and I think, you know, keep it simple, stupid, right? Like the less the better. So I think just between workamajig Trello boards every now and again when I need them for you know, more specific things and then just being able to write things down and have it at my fingertips
Jess:Yes I don't know that I will ever find a program or anything that will outdo a good old fashioned sticky note.
Flora:Oh, I have. I have every size of post it. I've got every color. My daughter's got the ones with lines on them. And I try to steal sometimes like I, I'm a huge fan of that post a note, I think I need to buy stock. I don't know why I haven't already
Jess:I love sticky notes. It's terrible. I have tried so many other things. And like, I'm just like, you know, what if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Flora:Yeah, I agree.
Jess:And like I've even gotten to a point. So like, all of my clients have sticky notes that correlate to them based on the color of their logo. So like, I know that all of my orange sticky notes correlate to this client, all of my red ones correlate to Epic. But then I even went as far as to get I have like, the tiny sticky notes that are like, one and a half by one and half. No, they're phenomenal. Because they actually like they fit around. Like if you want to put something on your computer monitor. They've been around the monitor without being like a giant hang tag off the end.
Flora:Not come I'm always like whacking them. Yeah,I also have, like my project management book for like, PMP it's a it's like our expert guide. I have those little flag ones. Yeah, it's like 30 little flag posts. It's all my project management book. I love it.
Jess:I was it. I think I discovered this. Um, in like a course I was taking like after college or something. But they have, um, they had like sticky notes that were like, mostly clear, which was great. Because I could write on them in pen. But when at the end of the semester when I wanted to sell my book, I could just take my sticky notes out of it. And there was no writing in the textbook.
Flora:Yes, I have those to
Jess:Right? feel like we should all just go buy us buy some stock in post it notes because my desk looks like the post it note factory blew up on it.
Flora:I do love me a good post it note.
Jess:But yeah, being organized is definitely, definitely key. And I feel like I don't need to tell anybody that like that's just the key to everything be organized.
Flora:Yeah. Oh, no, Jess you have to tell many people that there's this sort of like, organizational chaos to that I have going on sometimes. Like, you might not know where it is. But I know exactly where it is.
Jess:We I had this conversation with I think my sister the other day cuz like she was like overhauling like she was like, deep cleaning everything like reorganizing re whatever. And then like a day later, she was like, crap. Yeah, where I don't even know where I put this and I'm like, exactly. I'm like, this is why I only clean in small spurts. Because then I can actually like commit to memory, where I put all the scissors where I put all of these things. And that way, I'm not like destroying everything looking for something because I put it somewhere that I thought I would remember.
Flora:Right?
Jess:Oh, being organized, who knew it was so difficult? So do you have any, I guess, tidbits or secrets that you have that you have to keeping, you know, Epic on track, or even just keeping like yourself on track or your kid on track, although I feel like keeping your children on tract is just a lost cause.
Flora:It's a never ending battle. I'm keeping us on track. I think I'm making the most of a calendar, whether it's you know, tangible, or, you know, something online, I definitely have my whiteboard here that I you know, I handwrite a calendar every month and I, you know, have the running projects. It's different than when you see it tasked out. It's a little bit easier when you have everything sort of running. You know, it's like linear. This project is here. This project is here, this product is here. It's a little bit easier.
Jess:Yeah, I feel like it all comes. Everything always boils down to the same thing just being on top of your stuff. Yeah. But it's
Flora:But I think
Jess:No good ahead
Flora:I think it's also just having knowing, knowing your team well, knowing which ones are going to be the ones that are more organized and which ones are least organized. So you can sort of leverage that a bit. Like, I know that you always know what's going on, you always know exactly where when everything is. So I can always see like, hey, Jess what's going on with this and you will probably know before the person even working on it. Like knowing your team and knowing your assets, you know?
Jess:Well, I'm glad that you think that I know everything they know wherever you want to have it. I don't know whether that's a good thing or if I'm just super nosy.
Flora:But when it comes organization management nosy it not necessarily a bad thing you need to know.
Jess:Right? Exactly. Yeah, I think that's definitely a key. Um, so we just finished like a big project. Um, how do you keep telling and I'm always Like fascinated by like, when like there's a bunch of moving parts, a bunch of people, and how you keep everybody kind of on track because I know that I called we've been like, I know we're working on this big project. But what about this and this and this? So like when we have a big project that's got lots of moving parts and lots of pieces and lots of people? Um, how do you kind of keep everybody on track and keep the project moving? Aside from just being like, excuse me, your due date is in two days?
Flora:Well, there's a lot of that excuse me, not not not, excuse me? Where is this? Um, I think it's really important that you sort of stay calm, regardless of how chaotic it is. And again, everybody else's sort of freaking out because there are so many parts, where's this? Where's that? What, like, somebody has to be that calm in the storm. So I might be freaking out internally, but, you know, somebody has to bring that calm presence, like, don't worry about it, we'll figure it out. Let's go ask the right people. You know, it's all like, you know, bring it back down. When there are that many moving parts, I want to say the organization is really important. But I think beyond that is even just knowing like, even if you're not the most organized person, some people are just really good at knowing. So yes, people just have it in there. Like, I know where this is, I know where that is, I know where they are in this, I know where they are in that. And it may never be written down anywhere. And some people just are, I want people to have to write things down. So organization, I think comes in many forms. But I think when you have all those, you also have to remember that everybody's sort of working, not in a bubble, but they see one facet. And so when they're having those like, Hey, where's this? Where's that? Where's that you have to meet someone, if you can't reach out to one person, you're gonna have to reach out to three, you know, and they may all give you a different answer. And you're gonna have to sort of decipher All right, where is it? I think it's not being afraid either to get three people on the phone, say, All right. I know that everybody's going a little crazy right now. But we need to take five minutes, let's take five minutes, take a breath, regroup, move on from there.
Jess:That is a super good point that like everybody doesn't always think about all of the facets that are going on. And I know I try to, but I know sometimes we get like, you get like blinders on. And you only think about, like what you have to do. And when and sometimes you don't think about I have to finish this. So Ann can go and do this part B. So then Sheryl can go do Part C, um, it's definitely, especially when it is like, we don't have very many of these, but especially when it is like a very high stress, like, high risk situation, you're like, everybody's trying to move a million miles an hour, but then you come in with your calm demeanor, and bring us all back down to earth.
Flora:Yeah, and I, it's, it's, it's not just also tasking things out properly and saying, okay, Jess, you need to do A, B and C, and then you know, Ann is doing X, Y, and Z, it's also you're doing A, C, and C, here's where A goes, when you're finished. Here's where a B goes, when you're finished, here's where C is going to come from when Sheryl's finished, you know, it's, it's seeing that over a hole, it's almost like a map, you know, like, I see where all of my trains are going. And it's letting every train know where to connect, who to connect to, and then where to go once they've connected. Because when you start working, you know, you know that you have to do this print ad, and you work on this print ad and you know, you're only going to copy you're like Alright, well now what? You know, and then I know that I have this other piece over here that I also have to do for this social ad. So I've done this print ad copy, I've done this social copy, but what do I do now? So it's not just everybody knowing their task. It's knowing what comes next and what came before it.
Jess:I feel like I would like either go crazy or just have like high levels of stress followed by high levels of like complete satisfaction that the train made it all the way into the station without anybody getting derailed.
Flora:Or all of those feeling multiple times a day that tends to happen.
Jess:Yeah, I don't know how I just how do you not like run around screaming all the time?
Flora:Just because you don't see it.
Jess:You see, you're like at home with like a pillow like screaming and you're like, why won't these people listen?
Flora:I think also, I think one thing about me and I I don't I'll be honest, I don't know a whole lot of other project managers, but I think I think they're an important skills and something that I know that I do because it's been tested multiple times is when it comes to high stress situations. I got it. I'm calm, cool and collected. I can direct it here. Just go here and we'll figure this out. Don't worry about that. We're gonna figure this out. You know, let's do this real quick and to see how it works. We're good and then afterwards, you're like, holy crap, what the hell just happened. What just went on in those, you know, 20 some days of complete chaos and then you can sort of look back and reflect but it you have to just be calm cool, because somebody has to somebody has to be that voice of reason and that calm the storm.
Jess:That is a great point. I feel like I I completely understand that I feel like I have a I'm super, like super put together. And you know, when shit is hitting the proverbial fan, like I can, like, calm everything down and like, make up a plan. But like, outside of that sometimes I'm like, Where? Where am I going? I'm lost. Someone helped me. Yeah,
Flora:I agree. I've had those moments where like, you come down from the super high afterwards and like, what the hell did I go through? But you made it You made it through. And I think you know, after you get over that initial like,Whoa, you're like, Hey, Iactually made it through. We made it through, we did fine. And then I think an important point, even after that is doing things like post mortems, which is reflecting and saying, whoa, crap, what just happened? Let's talk about it. Let's unpack it. Let's see what worked well, let's see what didn't work. Well, what do we want to carry over to our next project? And what do we want to leave on the side of the road and never see again?
Jess:Yes, I was gonna say, I feel like you first introduced me to the idea of a, quote unquote, post mortem. And I am like, big on feedback. Like, I like not to toot my own horn, but I was always like, the kid in high school that always got the like, um, award for like, being the most coachable and, like, handle feedback well. Like, I love feedback, like my personal like belief is that unless you're giving me constructive criticism, I'm never going to know that I'm doing anything wrong, or that there's anything that I if there's anything I can improve, to make my job better and to make your job easier. I'm so like, when we have our like, social media post mortems, at the end of each month, it's like, super helpful to like, look back and see that Oh, like, Flora was right, like, we can do it a little bit faster. And like Ann was right, we can do a little bit better. Um, so I definitely think that like doing post mortems after like big, like, multi person projects across the company is like, going to be super beneficial in the long run, because, one, it'll have everybody work better together. But it also helps you learn.
Flora:Yeah, and I think postmark is one of those things that nobody ever really wants to do, like, got to do this again. But
Jess:I mean, it's called post mortem. Yeah, I
Flora:mean, I guess, again, I'm not creative. So if you have a better a better term for that meeting, I'm all for it. But I think I think it's, it's all about like framing in a way of it's, we have to post mortem than we're looking at what we did last time, but I think nobody wants to beat a dead horse, right? Like it's over moving on. But if you frame it more in the terms of, we're really using this to do better next time.
Jess:Yes,
Flora:Those two, let's whip this horse and we're done and finished and wanted to sweep under the rug. Well, it's important to go back and reflect and see those things. It's less of a like, it's less of a, this is what we did wrong and more of a what do we want to do different next time? So I think it's all about framing it correctly, too, because nobody wants to do it. But it's so important. Because like you said, if you don't have feedback, how do you know how to be better? You don't. You can't walk around thinking that you did everything, right, because he probably didn't no matter how good you are at your job. There's always something you can do better. And sometimes it takes somebody else being on a higher level, and you know, sort of looking over everything to see it. And sometimes I think people have this feedback. And they want to say and they don't know, when how when's it appropriate, or they say things at times where like, nobody's really ready to receive it. So post mortems are such a great time to just get together as a team. And everybody can say what they think everybody can say what their issues are, everybody can come up with solutions. You know, everybody can do it together.
Jess:I agree with that. I always it's funny, because like, I work with high school students, and I tell them all the time, like, nobody's perfect, you all need to practice because everybody knows as soon as like with teenagers, as soon as you turn around, they stopped doing whatever they're supposed to be doing. Yeah. Um, but like with them, like I remind them all the time, like, none of you are perfect. You need to keep practicing so that you can get better. Like there's the only way you get better is by practicing and listening to the feedback that and I let them kind of like self self monitor each other, which I should probably monitored over them a little bit more closely. But like the concept is that like the senior captains will give productive feedback to the other squad members and generally may do. Um, but again, you have to be receptive to that feedback. And I think at least here Epic everybody. pretty open to constructive criticism and good feedback, especially after super stressful projects where everyone's like, excuse me, how can we make this not a pain in the butt next time?
Flora:Right. And I think it turns a culture of complaining and whining into more of a culture of a meeting of the minds, like, you know, I mean, we had that huge project. And there was definitely some things that we all agree that there was some things we could have done differently. And instead of us sitting around whining, complaining, well, we should have done this, or how can we do that? We can have that post mortem and have that time to say, Hey, this is what I think we should do next time, or I didn't really like this, do we have better ideas or idea for something else. And it just, it takes it from a complete session. Or just people whining and complaining all day long without, you know, without anybody listening or taking them seriously. Because who wants to hear complaining to the culture of growth.
Jess:Right? Yeah, I think I was on the phone with Sheryl earlier, and I said something that like, again, things I tell my high schoolers. Um, if you're going to come to me with a complaint, you at least need to have a suggestion for a solution. We might not use that solution, but I need you to come up with one at least. And I told her, I was like, in the last like three or four years that I've implemented that rule, the amount of complaining has just completely like disappeared, because now they're thinking, well, I don't like that this person does this. So instead of complaining to me, now they're thinking of the next step of, well, maybe if I take some time to teach them how to do it correctly, maybe if I talk to them on one on one versus in front of the group, like, I like I have legitimately noticed it in high school students. So if it works with 16, and 17 year olds, it's got to work with adults,
Flora:Here's hoping, right?
Jess:I don't know, cross my fingers. Well, flora, thankyou so much for joining us today. We'll have to have you back on to talk about some other interesting things.
Flora:Yeah, there's so many facets of project management. Like there's so much to talk about.
Jess:Absolutely. I'm sure we could write like an entire wall. I mean, it's a class in Business School. Sure, it's classes. And I'm sure that there's plenty of topics we can cover. So until next time, thank you for joining us. Thank you all for tuning in this week. We hope this theory is relative to your marketing. Make sure you subscribe to get notified of our latest episode.