Hello, and welcome to The Theory of Marketing Relativity Podcast. I'm Jess Burton, a marketing specialist here at epic marketing consultants Corporation. Let's talk all things marketing and merchandising with our Epic team. Today my guest is Peter Shankman, Epic's, Futurist -in-Residence. Peter, thank you so much for joining me again today.
Peter Shankman:Always a pleasure to be here.
Jess:I know especially we've made it knock on wood this far through 2020
Peter Shankman:You know, it's I think everyone it's funny I look most people like well 2021 to be great. I'm like the virus doesn't respect the calendar, but you know, ok.
Jess:I have been thoroughly enjoying all the memes about um,
Peter Shankman:January December 32nd. And all that
Jess:yes, I think my favorite so far is like you thought 2020 was hard. Wait till she turns 21 That one might be my favorite so far, but it is just like a my the virus doesn't know like time of year or calendar or whatever.
Peter Shankman:No doubt.
Jess:Oh, I know and use you've given into the I like to call it the pandemic puppy squad.
Peter Shankman:Yes. I yeah. Much to my you know, my my nope. We're not getting a dog. No way. We're getting a dog because we will not be getting a dog and we have a dog now. Yeah.
Jess:She wore you down, huh?
Peter Shankman:Oh yeah, It wasn't even a question. And now I'm, you know, it's like, I take him out like five times a day and when you live in the when you live in a floor above 50 that's not easy. You know? Like, I, I'm taking that and of course you take him out. You know, and I take him out. He does absolutely nothing. I bring him back. he pees and poops right on this wee wee pad. I'm like that the whole purpose of taking you out. So yeah, a lot of fun.
Jess:Definitely a learning curve. I was thinking about it. I was like, doesn't Peter live on like the 40 somethings floor like, hey, extra exercise. Um, so anyway, back to what we're going to talk about today. Since you are a futurist I we thought it was only pertinent that we get your opinion on outside the deep future. But the more near future of 2021, and kind of how we think marketing is going to continue moving as we move into 2021. And what I like to call the second half of the pandemic. So generally speaking, marketing wise, what's something that you think will continue to alter and shift and change as we move into next year?
Peter Shankman:I think we're gonna definitely see people a lot more continuing to get more and more comfortable with virtual things. You know, if you're an introvert, like, my God, this is your moment. You know, to be able to do everything from introductory meetings to sales calls to to conferences entirely online. You know, it's something we never really thought would happen. Now. Does that mean we're not going to have you know, we'll never see another conference? Not that I know of, I'm sure we will, my guess is late 21, early 22, we'll start to see small conferences return. And I got asked to do a speaking gig in Tennessee, I think in Nome in March, for like, 25 people where they'll stream it to another like 1000 online, um, you know, an in person event, you know, little earlier than I expected, but I guess the real question is, let's see what you know, let's see what it brings. I don't think we're gonna get to big conferences anytime soon. Um, but yeah, everything else is gonna be is gonna be remote. And people are apparently really good with that.
Jess:I will say it is funny to think about how much everyone's use of zoom and, you know, GoToMeeting and Google Hangouts and Microsoft Teams, like everybody seems to be now an expert on it, or at least an expert, very proficient in using it, which has definitely been my biggest surprise, because I know that I always, unfortunately, just credit the older generation as to being inflexible and unable to learn. But I am very impressed by some of the people that I know who have taught me some things about virtual platform.
Peter Shankman:Oh yeah. It's what blows my mind is that you know, like to see my mother, right. We did it. We did a surprise birthday for her this past June. celebration. We're like 20 people on Zoom. And she was looking at that she knew where the camera was on the computer. Like she looked exactly at it. She wasn't looking like covering it with her hand or off. What do you know? So So yeah, you can teach any dog new tricks I suppose except mine who's sitting here chewing a shoe but whatever it is possible, you know and and and you know necessity what's what's like necessity create strange bedfellows, right? necessity creates a lot and and and if you only have if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Jess:Absolutely. Is there anything you think that can expand upon to kind of, like I know, like here at Epic, like we started this podcast, we decided that we're all going to be home more and everybody's going to be a little more available. Um, because of all the extra stuff we're not doing. We were going to start a podcast, are there other things that businesses can start looking at that they might have considered not as important in their marketing plan, but should consider shifting to now?
Peter Shankman:I think that, like I said, other than virtual, one of the things you have to look at is really how can you personalize become more per use more personalization with your audience. Right? We're all stuck at home, we're all in this together. So the concept of sending out a mass email that says these are unprecedented times really does nothing anymore. So I would suggest that learning about your audience is possibly the best thing you can do hands down. You want to learn about your audience, you want to know, sort of what their, what their fears are, what their worries are everything like that. And then how can you address those as opposed to just sort of a blanket email, everyone says, Hey, how are you doing? You know, talk to them ask. There's never been an easier time to communicate with your audience. Because you are so they're so available, right? And you can learn so much from just from a simple email. Right? So reaching out to your audience and asking questions and doing them that is just it's just hugely beneficial right now.
Jess:Absolutely. I think I always I always enjoy your emails, because I feel like I'm reading like, an update from something like, obviously, I know who you are. But I feel like I'm reading a more like personalized update versus like, a professionally, like strategized email that's gonna you know, what I mean, I always feel like I'm reading like, a Peter journal entry for the day.
Peter Shankman:Yeah, if, you know, I think but that's the thing I, I've done so much studying in my audience for what, 20 years now that, you know, this is what I've learned, and I know how to talk to them. But you know, it's also not BS, right? I'm very open and honest with them about my life, and I'm not sitting there, you know, you know, creating some line of bullshit that that I think they want to hear I talk about stuff that I know, they want to hear. And I talk about it openly and honestly. And you have to do that, you know, we don't give people enough credit. I mean, you know, the joke is, like, a person is smart people are stupid, but, you know, having an audience is a privilege, not a right. And so you need to respect that audience and respect that right, and treat them the way they deserve to be treated.
Jess:Definitely. So what's the thing that businesses in your opinion should avoid in 2021?
Peter Shankman:Um, stop using the word unprecedented. Please, that, um, you know, don't, I think that that, you know, a lots gonna depend on how the new administration acts, and plus, you know, who the hell knows what's gonna happen in the next 23 days, you know, see if we're still the country left, but I think that one of the things that's gonna have to happen is that companies are gonna have to avoid, they're either gonna have to go all in on on being political or completely ignore it, there won't be that middle ground, you won't be able to simply, you know, chime in when it feels like you want to, you're not gonna chime in or you're gonna chime in, you know, and and be prepared for the consequences either way, I think that companies should also stop focusing on and I've been saying this for years, this is nothing new. But you know, stop chasing the likes, start doing more likable things, right, the better you are to your audience, the better your audience will grow. It's not about trying to get that constantly trying to get that new customer but rather being amazing with the customers you have that will bring you the customers you want. I can't tell you how many times that companies still do this. You know, our next tweets are 10,000 tweets, the first person reply, what is it such a screw up to the 9,999 people that already follow you? Whatever? Who cares? No, you don't matter to us. We're going after that new one. So you know, just think about put the stop doing things without putting yourself into your audience's shoes first.
Jess:I love that. I feel like I was just explaining to one of our clients about Instagram and I was saying you'd rather have a smaller audience who is liking and commenting all of your stuff first to have a huge audience and nobody engages. Nobody's paying attention to you. You're shouting into the void.
Peter Shankman:Yeah. And you know, that's so funny. I think the concept of micro influencers is very important. I'd rather talk to I'd rather an influencer with 200, active, engaged followers, retweet me or post something that you know that I'm doing whatever, versus like someone with 20,000 50,000 100,000 followers that no one cares about. Right, if you look at the engagement on some of the top influencers on Instagram or anywhere, it's microscopic, right? When you look at engagement levels for someone who has a few 100, or, you know, three or four or 500 active followers, it the numbers are astronomical. So you really want to understand what the best outlet is for your media for yourself or whatever, and engage the people who will actually make a difference. No, it's great to be on the front page in New York Times. But, um, you know, if you're targeting 16 year old kids, they're probably not reading The New York Times every single day. Right? And that you maybe you want to go where they are reading
Jess:100% you should be on Tik Tok.
Peter Shankman:Without question, um,
Jess:I think we're definitely seeing a shift, especially in social media to that, um, kind of what you said, people shifting to like the idea of having a of like, I, you know, quality over quantity. Yeah. Which I think is great, because I think that's how you maintain a strong business, and you keep your clients engaged,
Peter Shankman:No question about it. You know, it's funny, because I've been saying that for years, right? It's the premise of having an audience is a privilege, not a right. It's exactly like wearing spandex. Right? When I'm, when I'm out there exercising, I don't have the right to wear spandex. When I train for nine months, and I do a race, I've earned the privilege of wearing spandex during the race, then the race is over, I get my medal. And they say, Okay, thank you, sir, can you please put on this bulky t shirt, so I get it. But it's the same exact thing with having an audience, right? You're not born with the right to the right to have people listen to you. You have to earn that privilege every single day by creating good content by creating stuff that people want, and making sure that you're giving them what they need to better their lives. I don't remember the what is it Walmart, save money live better is that is that their slogan? I don't remember who it is. But you know, how, how simple and direct him to the point is that, right? That's kind of what you want. You want to give people stuff that allows them to live better, and allows them to improve their lives. And if you go into writing, or creating content, or creating anything with that premise in the back of your mind, your content will automatically be better, and will automatically be more accepted by your audience. But you got to go in with the concept that the audience comes first. And being able to talk that audience matters a great deal because they can go anywhere they want. And especially now it is so easy for people to go somewhere else. Right? So especially if that's the one sort of downside of everything virtual, you go to a conference, you go to an event, you're there, right, you got a virtual you shut off your screen. Right, it takes about a half a second. So you really want to make sure that you're on point with what you're doing.
Jess:Absolutely. I'm talking about what's on point and where we should go. What do you think, and I know that most businesses have put money towards marketing. I know, Nancy always preaches to us that the businesses that survived the I guess it would be the late 2000s I don't know what the correct term for like, that time period of time, the only way to know but we're the ones that spent money on they kept marketing they stayed in the game that they didn't cut them.
Peter Shankman:Oh Yeah. Actually, it was the late 90s. Right, like during that during the during the downturn of the economy, like 98 99 2000, you know, companies that that kept their marketing going during a downturn came out better on the other side, then companies who who funnel money away from marketing towards you know, whatever else, it because when that when the storm lifted the company that the companies that continued marketing already had a strong voice.
Jess:Mm hmm.
Peter Shankman:And it was about being able to keep that strong voice and and utilize that strong voice right. The downside is people you know, the companies that didn't do that wound up not having any voice when when when the storm lifted. And so yeah, you want to keep focusing on marketing, no matter what, you know, if you have you know, $2 you name make sure when it goes to marketing and because that is how you're going to get to keep your brand going. Regardless of whether you are in a negative or positive way. That's how you're gonna keep your brand going.
Jess:Absolutely is there um, I guess like we've learned we've had a lot of our clients have learned that like there are just because you have the money to put towards marketing doesn't mean that all avenues of marketing are created equal. I remember early on in the pandemic, trying to convince a client that no you do not need billboard ads, nobody's driving.
Peter Shankman:Exactly.
Jess:Um, so as we continue through the pandemic, is there anywhere that you see would be a good place to throw those marketing dollars at?
Peter Shankman:I mean, it's always been a good point, you
Jess:Yeah, absolutely. I, we were talking about a we have a know, I can't tell you where through your marketing dollars because I'm not you, right? I'm not a client, what I can do is client who has a radio ad, or a radio at a TV commercial right take the info, give me better clients, okay, this is your best bet. So because every client is different. It's not to say, hey, what what social platform should we be on? I don't freaking kn w. Where's your audience? Right? So I think before you before ny client throws money at marketing, the thing they n ed to ask is where is our audie ce? And audiences shift. They g to different places they leave hey go, you know, where is our audience? Where are hey currently hanging out? Where are they working? Where are t ey? What are they looking at? hat are they watching? You know could you imagine that? That, you know, if you had unlimited budget, I would tell you not to take a billboard in Times Square. Did you might say that a year ago, he would have thought I was crazy. But that's where we are right now. And the package that she has has her on the Hallmark Channel locally. And I think in one night of watching, unfortunately, I hate to admit this that I've watched more than my fair share of movies. I think I saw her commercial like five or six times. And like, each time was just like, oh, hey, I know them. But I did. I did think about it. And it was one of those things when like, you have a captive audience here of women who are ages 24 to my mom watches Hallmark she's in her 60s. Yeah, like watching your TV channel, literally almost every night. Because there's nothing else to do.
Peter Shankman:You know, the funny thing is, is there is there's so many things to do. But for certain audiences know, there's only one thing you know, I mean, you're trying to reach you know, people who like sports, well, you know, New Year's Day, you know, what is. So again, you have to know your audience. And that's nothing new for 2021. But I think that knowing your audience, this year will will produce even more dividends than it has in the past.
Jess:I agree with you. I agree that learning where your audiences meet, I feel like the phrase that I've heard over and over and over again, and I'm starting to regurgitate it is you have to meet your audience where they're at. They're at Facebook, go there. If Facebook,
Peter Shankman:was once asked how to win baseball games? And his answer was you hit them where they ain't the opposite shoe and marketing. You hit them where they are. But you got to find out where they are first.
Jess:Exactly. And then you have to you have to know who your audience is. One very random question that I just find interesting. And we debated back and forth, at least weekly. I'm especially like, I unfortunately, have started watching more TV lately. Um, but we've all noticed a shift in visuals in commercials, and imagery about different brands acknowledging the pandemic, and different brands just kind of like ignoring that it's even in existence with imagery. So for example, I just saw a commercial this weekend that, you know, people had masks on, they were in a social setting like they were supposed to, but they had masks on, they were certainly distance whatever. Another commercial I saw, had three people in a room, they were in a business, they were maybe six, two feet or more apart. But like across the bottom of the screen, it said this was filmed following COVID protocols, please wear a mask when you visit our location, our physical locations? Um, yeah, do you? I mean, I don't know, I'm just curious as to what your opinion is on. Either acknowledging or ignoring the fact that we're in a pandemic and changing your imagery in your marketing messaging.
Peter Shankman:We're in a pandemic, you know, like, we can't really there's nothing we can do about it. Right? We're in a pandemic. And so, I think that, you know, it's funny, I see photos online, and every photo I see online, I try to determine, okay, when was this taken? They're not none of them. No one's wearing masks with 1000 people in the audience. This was taken before, you know, march of 2020. And it's interesting, it's a bummer, you know, I mean, I miss, I miss the days where we could just go out to, you know, see a photo like, I have no idea when I was taken, because, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think it's gonna be funny when our kids are looking back on photos. And they Oh, yeah, that was during 2020. Yeah. I don't think there's gonna be a time anytime in the next several years for at least for smart people. Where they're not gonna be wearing masks. I mean, even after the vaccine, I still think only wearing a mask for a while. Um, I just, you know, it's what I do. Now. I leave the house, I got my phone, got my wallet, got my keys, got my mask, you know, and it's a new I hate the term new normal. I hate it with a passion but it's what normal is now and normal changes all the time. And that's, that's why normal because normal is constantly new. But, you know, I think that addressing the fact that there is a pandemic, that we are in it, um, and that we're taking steps to mitigate it is not necessarily a bad thing. Right. And I mean, you know, I'm super psyched for what's Coming to America Two Oh, yeah. coming out in March. And I know that they've been filming. They've been filming for the past year. You know, and granted, they're following strict protocols and, and they're not going to be you're not going to see them wearing masks in the movie, but you look at videos, news reports, whatever, you know, my first thought is, are these people being safe? Mm hmm. If not, why are they idiots you know, and so, so? Yeah, I don't see that going away anytime soon.
Jess:I agree, I think I unfortunately have scrolled TikTok enough where I've fallen into this hole of people and I, a lot of my friends are healthcare workers. And a lot of them had said that, you know, if we just wear masks during cold and flu season, it wouldn't be so bad. And I'm like, Listen, cold and flu season is cold here on the East Coast, Northern east coast. I've wear a mask until it hits 70 degrees. Yeah. It keeps my face warm.
Peter Shankman:True. I mean, that's the nice thing about wearing a mask. My lips have never been I'd have not gotten chapped lips this season.
Jess:I that I will agree with you. I have not used nearly as much chapstick as I normally would. Yep. Well, Peter, thank you very much for joining me.
Peter Shankman:Always a pleasure.
Jess:People would like to find you where should they look?
Peter Shankman:Yeah, I mean, I'm @PeterShankman, and all the socials and my personal website Shankman.com. You know, anything that I'm doing, you can find pretty much online. Instagram, Twitter, not so much Facebook, I try to avoid it. But you know, I'm there but Instagram, Twitter, I'm even on LinkedIn as painful as that is any I'm eas to f
Jess:Well, Peter, again, thank you and hopefully we can have you back soon.
Peter Shankman:Anytime.
Jess:Thank you all for tuning in this week. We hope this bearing is relative to your marketing needs. Make sure you subscribe to get notified of our latest episodes.